Supernatural Music Extravaganza: Backstage Pass - The Crew's Turn in the Spotlight

Ever wonder what happens when a TV show's crew forms a band? We got answers from two members of The Impalas - Supernatural's incredibly talented crew band that rocked wrap parties and even appeared as the Roadhouse band in an actual episode.

Jim Michaels (Producer) reveals that crew bands are a TV tradition, explains The Impalas' "full-time crew members only" rule, and shares how their drummer was SO good that recording studios started hiring him. Also confirmed: Jensen Ackles is annoyingly talented at everything.

Brad Creasser (Camera Operator/Saxophonist) played with the band despite being "terrified" of performing. He recalls the Hunker Down Festival where Vancouver crews battled with their bands, and the magical moment filming Rob Benedict's "Fare Thee Well."

PLUS: Ben Edlund on writing the Ghost Facers theme, his recorder orchestra trauma, and his own band Ghost Tyger & Friends (where he's definitely NOT being possessed by a pro-cannibalism interdimensional tiger who wants you to recycle grandma into furniture).

Highlights: The physics-defying Kansas Comic-Con surprise, why "Renegade" is the perfect needle drop, Jensen's musical beginnings, and a passionate defense of paying for real music instead of cheap sound-alikes.

Warning: Contains references to eating the dead and bismuth discussions.

Special thanks to Ghost Tyger & Friends for allowing us to feature some of their music. Find tracks and more at https://bit.ly/4ixhyjN.

A Denim Wrapped Nightmares and In Defensive Fandom podcast crossover

Transcript

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Sadie Witkowski 1:09

Welcome back to the Denim Wrapped Nightmares and Indefense of Fandom Podcast crossover. Supernatural music extravaganza. In this collaboration series, we're looking at the music in the show, the music inspired by the show, and music created by actors, cast and crew. Today we're sharing a few of the musical talents on the Supernatural Crew, starting with Jim Michael. I'm gonna let LA from Denarock Nightmares take over from here.

LA 1:38

Besides Jim's production work on Supernatural, he's had a long career in television and crew bands. Don't worry, we'll get to that in a moment. Michael started his producing career on an NBC series called Midnight Caller starring Gary Cole. He's worked on shows like Lois and Clark, Odysse 5, and Everybody Hates Chris. And as he told us, nearly all these shows had crews that formed bands to play at rap parties, just like Supernaturals, the Impala's. Here's our conversation with Jim Michaels.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Oh no, music's key to it. It's it's uh one of those things that's um it's some of the uh if you do it right, it's some of the best spent money you can put into a show as far as needle drops and or the score. You know, um Jay and and and Chris Leonard alternated episodes as far as doing the score and are both accomplished musicians in their own right. You know, they both toured other big bands and have written big hits and stuff for other stars and stuff. So there's there's no there's no lack of music around the set ever. And and with and with and with many shows, you know, not just ours, you know, um people get in the entertainment business for a right a variety of reasons. Uh there's a lot of you know frustrated musicians in there, you know. It's um well, I mean, you know, the thing is you you get close to it, you know. If you can't if you can't be the uh the star opening up for uh the Foo Fighters, you know, maybe you can be the sound engineer for them, you know. I have to share that, you know, my 40 years in entertainment, music's the hardest one to make it. It is so hard. As hard as it is for actors and and television and film acting um and painters and music is is the hardest one to uh actually make a living at because it is incredibly competitive and it's you know, um, until recently, very limited even get your music out there. I mean, that's one of the uh the of the entertainment business that's changed the most is probably music because people can now can really self-publish and you can they can sell their own music on the on the internet, and you no longer need this giant corporation, you know, stealing all your songs and stealing all your royalties and stuff. So you can actually you can actually retain a lot of your rights and uh you can much more control your destiny and control more importantly, you know, the creative control of it and and and essentially you know, we all have to make a living, you have to get paid for it too. So um it's um it's just one of those unique parts of the uh of the business. But there's always been like on every show I've worked on, there's always been incredible musicians all over the set, you know, because you know, uh sound guy, yeah, he's probably sound he's probably mixed sound stuff, you know. It's um you just don't know where it's gonna lead.

Berly 4:08

So this thing that I thought was super unique to supernatural, not not so much.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Well, I think I think the difference with our show is that is that I mean, there's lots of musicians. The difference is with our shows, and then and I have to, you know, you know, this goes back to Bob Singer. Um, you know, we go and we seek out these people on each show we do. So um, you know, years ago, Bob, Bob and I have done like nine, eight or nine series together, and and and we used to do a show called Midnight Collar, and that one, there was a band there when I came on the show. I was on the show for year one, I was in two and three, but there had a band, you know, and um uh Gary Cole, who was the lead actor on that show, who's gone on the fame in other shows, other things now, but uh he was the lead, he's the drummer in that and had a really tight band. Now it's called Bobby and the Bone Masters. I wasn't available when they started the show, although I wouldn't Bob didn't do the pilot either, so I was never up for the pilot. But I was doing a show called Everybody Hates Chris, which did the pilot at the same time they did the pilot for Supernatural. So I did the four years of that, and then they made a change. Uh they were Bob was looking for somebody to come in on Supernatural Year Five, and that's how I came in to see your five. And I got there, and well, where's the band, Bob? I mean, like, and I knew a lot of great, I go, Jesus, I heard some guys playing acoustic on stage, and like, you know, Chris Glenn Jones, our boom guy's a pretty good player, and and and Tracy and Setdex really good guitar player, too, you know. So I started saying, you know, and the 100th party was already in the works, you know, just you know, being planned. And I thought, I said, Bob, why don't we put a band together? And Bob's thing was the same with me. He's like, if we're gonna do it, we gotta do it right, you know, which which and all the other bands, you gotta rehearse, you gotta do the whole thing. So we ended up putting uh a band together for the hundredth party. And uh the only rule to join the band was is that you had to be a full-time crew member. You couldn't have like I guess heard one day or day played as a as a as an extra one day. No, you gotta be a full-time crew member. Um, and you have to come to you have to come to rehearsals. You can't just show up on the night and say, Oh, can I sing one song? No, you get you got to come to rehearsals because for the hundredth party, uh, we we rehearsed, I don't know how many Sundays. I mean, probably at least 14, 12 or 14 rehearsals and stuff. And it would take two, three hours at a time because we're sort of you know want to get the set list down to a reasonable number. Um, but that, you know, but you know, um, you know, so Bob's oftentimes the lead singer. I sing on occasion and play guitar, but um, but we had Jeff Budnick, who a lot of people know in the in the fandom know him because he's the car guy, you know, and so you know, uh Perry Batista, who also played bass but was in one set deck crew with Tracy, who's an excellent lead guitarist, along with Chris Glenn Jones, the boon guy, they already sort of been playing it. So why don't we so Jeff said we you know we so we sort of split up the bass duties for the 100th party between Perry and Jeff Budnick. Uh we had a rigging group named Cam Beck, and I had no idea how good of a drummer he was. So like it was like he was one of those, you shake your head and you're like, wow. Um uh Dave Weber, um uh he's our RN said carp, you know, Dave Carp. And unbeknownst to me, he'd been he'd been he'd made money as a composer for a lot of Canadian uh television, a lot of stings, a lot of commercial work. I mean, he was like an accomplished paid, you know, you know, musician and and um um score. I'm like, holy Christ, he had no idea. So so I started figuring out who was around and stuff, and uh Dave Riopel, who uh was our dollar grip, you know, was was a really good singer too. Like, wow. So we sort of started toying with this idea of putting a band together for the hundredth party. And uh so we started rehearsing. And of course, Jensen's, you know, is you know, he's one of those uh people that's good, like absolutely everything. You could show them how to how to uh take into an archery range, show him 30 seconds, it'd be hitting like eight out of nine bullseyes immediately. So makes me sick. The talent, the talent the man has naturally it's just like really, oh, this is a bowling ball. Oh, is is 285 a good game?

Sadie Witkowski 7:43

Not fair. He needs to share some of that talent. Come on now.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah, I mean, come on, just all in one person. I mean, come on. So so you know, we did a lot of rehearsals for that hundredth party. Um, but it's but it's always fun, like other shows I when I worked on everybody hates Chris. You know, certain certain bands you don't want to, you know, you don't try to like I wouldn't try to sit in. Like we have Marcus Miller, who's a very well well-known uh jazz musician and bass player. And I ain't sitting in with Marcus and his guys, those guys are real professionals, like you know, we just let them go. But um, you know, so so these things, you know, it just I'm just sharing some of the stories that it's sort of it's sort of in and around, you know, a lot of television shows and stuff. Some do stuff with it, but um, but back to back to supernatural though, but it was like we did we play that hundredth, we played that hundredth episode, and yeah, we were a little nervous, but we also we we re we all really wanted to be good. So I mean we all put a lot of time in. I mean, it wasn't, you know, um, it wasn't just like a pickup, like let's go two weekends in a row and then it was just knock it out. Like, no, we rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed, and oftentimes the sort of the core group who played in all the songs, they would um rehearse on their own and then like the first hour and stuff, you know, the core group being, you know, um um you know, Cam Beck on drums and and Perry and or Jeff Budnik and and Chris Glenn Jones on guitar, who was our boom guy, and uh and uh Tracy, who was the um the other lead guitarist, you know, they they would sort of you know practice for an hour and then all the other because like I didn't play in every song, I think I played like in the rap on the rap part, I think I played on four songs. I played keyboard, I sang one, played keyboard, helped on keyboards on two and another, and played backup guitar on another one, I think, or maybe only three. You know, I don't I don't actually don't even remember. I think I re-reinduced him through through uh the first song. I think well did the introduction and then stayed up for part of that song, but you know, that Bob and Jensen sang together. Um, but you know, so it was just it's a very, you know, it's very collaborative, but also but you gotta show up and you can't just, you know, you can't be drunk and stupid and like no no no no. We're we're gonna do this because people are gonna be recording this, and they did record it, you know. Uh we're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna embarrass ourselves. But you know, it was really fun though, the 100 part because everybody was like really surprised. And and and and the thing, you know, and we had other members later on, so the band expanded, but I'm sort of I'll keep most of my comments just the main core group, the original members, uh, not to not to slight the ones that joined later. Uh, you know, the nice thing about the band was every person on the on that crew knew one person really well because there were people from off-production, people from the production office, people on camera, people from the writer's office. There was somebody in that band that everybody knew really well. Because oftentimes, you know, if you're if you're the uh you're on the swing gang in in um you know Vancouver, you're you're not gonna know who the writer's PA is down in LA. You know, I mean you might know them by name, but you don't you don't really know them, you know, per se, because you don't spend any time with them. And even even in production, if you work, if you're always on the set and you're never into prep and you're always just on the production side, you know, you're not you're not gonna run into the people, you're not gonna run into the set decorators or or the or the wardroom or this or the you know the customers and the and the and the seamstresses that are there sewing like crazy, crazy talented, you know, they whip out, it's amazing what they would whip out of you know nothing. Um, you know, so you just you just wouldn't cross paths of them. But because with everybody in the band came from a different part of the the production, everybody knew at least one person really, really well, which I also thought was nice because everybody felt connected to it.

Berly 11:00

That's awesome. I know Brad Brad Creaser told me that he's played a couple of songs with y'all, so I guess he was a later edition, maybe the 100th episode. So uh I'm gonna ask you a question not related to the Impala's, just because I'm super curious and I can't help but do it. As a producer, were you involved in acquiring the needle drops that you guys used?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

No, I mean, oftentimes, you know, I think Phil Segrisha, you know, and Bob had a big hand in picking most of the songs. I mean, the writers oftentimes would write them into the episode. You know, we also had uh music supervisor, Alexander Pat Savas, who was incredibly talented and and and had great taste and and more importantly had the right connections because a lot of times you can't you can't get the songs because oftentimes you have to get them approved. I mean, it's uh it's it's very, very difficult, or you know, cost prohibitive, you know, like you know, Led Zeppelin, you know, you know, pretty much the if you're not if you're not if you don't have at least a half a million dollars, don't even bother contacting them. You know, the exception being Eric pulled off a coup, I think during the first season of Boys, where or they did like a cross promotion or something, or one of his other shows. Maybe it was I forget what he had they had Led Zeppelin, but they they still had to pay Led Zeppelin like a chunk of money.

Sadie Witkowski 12:08

But I know it was in the Winchesters. I know they managed to get like one needle drop, and everyone was like, How did this happen?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah, yeah, it was probably it was all part of the same deal and stuff. So, you know, it's it can it can be you know difficult to clear some songs. Other songs, you know, people are really excited about it, you know. Certainly um, you know, dropping in, you know, Kansas, you know, carry on Wayward Sun, which it's a combination of Phil Segrettian. I think the editor, Bob, some combination, I think I know Phil had a big big hand on it, you know, putting that in there. Have no, I have knowing idea that would become our, you know, our uh our starting at our unofficial anthem is our anthem, you know. In fact, I just saw the guys from Kansas uh last week. I was in LA and uh called the guys and and and went and saw the show. And uh, you know, they were they were huge fans of the show. And still to this day, uh, you know, pulling off the surprise at Comic-Con with Kansas there, that was like, you know, that was really that was really that was really quite an accomplishment because we've been trying to do it for years. You know, they always wanted to do the show, and uh, but we just the logistically and timelines couldn't use it. In fact, they literally were on a plane before our panel was done. So we opened up, you know. Um I I I got to sit in the audience for that one, and as they played the you know, a a well-prepared sort of tape, and we knew we're in Hall H we get the wraparound, so we we shot stuff specific for that. So they're playing the thing, and at the end of it, you know, you know, it's gonna start off, you know, the song carry on when we start off a cappella. And so it's so the finally finishes room, they drive off room, we're heading to San Diego, boom, boom. And so carry on this, so they start the song, and everybody on it is just thinking, like, well, this that's no big deal, and all of a sudden, but when the answer is on, if they do they carry on my way, so that da-da-da. Start when the music the answer started, the lights popped up, and I swear there was like a delay of crack is like, Wait, they're here. Played, they finished the song, knocked it out, and literally they they had to go off the stage. They they walked right onto uh a bus that took them straight to the airport, put them on a plane. Literally, I swear to God, they were in flight before our pet. That's how tight it was. They I think they had a show in I forget, I forget where it was, but somewhere they had to fly to. And literally, but anyway, that was uh uh another fun moment with with the show, and Indian Powell has never tried to never attempted to try to play Carry On Wayward Sun, by the way.

Sadie Witkowski 14:27

No, it just like it's already been done. We can't we can't upstage that.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Well, you know, we're not gonna improve it.

Berly 14:33

We know that's what some of your favorite songs on the set list. If you didn't play Carry On, what were you playing?

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Uh, you know, that's funny I I looked up, I looked up the set list from the um uh let me see if I can find it now. Oh, where is it? I looked up one of the set lists from the uh the hundredth party. Let's see. Okay, we started off with uh Can't Turn You Loose and right into Give Me Some of Lovin'. Then it was Soul Man. Dean, I mean Jensen. Uh Mystery Train, Keep Your Hands to Yourself, The Shape I'm In, Peace, Love, and Understanding, Gravity. There's a John Mayer song. There you go. You can't always get what you want. That's when I got to sing. Uh Running Back to Sas Saskatoon. Then it went right into uh a place, a song called The Right Place at the Wrong Time, and then The Wait. And then what we always ended up with was a flip-flop and fly. So it was uh we did like 12 songs, and uh, I forget we had some uh a couple people from our wardrobe department had a song about Parish Hilton's head, and there's a trio of women and he's had guitar. It was a phenomenal song, it was just so funny, you know. They kind of cutting off Paris Hilton's head. So that was uh that was that was fun.

Berly 15:37

I love that. That's a good set.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah, well, anyway, back circling back to the Impalas, but you know, the the good news is we didn't play in the 200th party and uh we played a couple of the rap parties and stuff, and you know, I think some of the rap parties were a little a little looser, I'll say. Uh but we had we had a lot of fun with them. Uh I think the 300th party is one the last one we did, and we really we really rehearsed hard for that one because uh we there was gonna be at a at a very famous club in um um in Vancouver, and we thought, okay, you know, we will never get to play this room ever again, so let's let's all so that was that was great. So that was a the 300th episode was uh a good tight set, you know. And um it was fun. It was like I say it was great. And then well then also then there was the episode where we needed a house band, and um uh so of course, you know, my idea is like just get the Imbalas, Bob. So everything else got so we end up putting them in the band in the Roadhouse episode, and um and uh they sang the same song from the uh the old uh Southern I I'm forgetting I'm blind.

Berly 16:45

Dukes of Hazard, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, Dukes and Hazard, right, yeah. So so we go to re so we go to record that song, so we go in the studio and stuff. We were the same producer, the same you know, engineers and producers we were worked with on the on the on the 200th episode, you know, for the musical. And uh so we we get in the recording studio and stuff, and um and the producer's gonna be good, like, who's that drummer's cam beck? Do you think he'd be interesting, interesting side worker? He was so good that they started hiring Cam. He could get day calling down at one of the major studios in Vancouver as a day drummer, you know, come in as a sideline musician. That's how good he was.

SPEAKER_05 17:19

Like, yeah, he'd be good.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah, I told you he was good. Yeah, but I thought you're just you know BS and me. Like, no, I told you he was really good. And so the two guitar two guitar players are great, but he goes, I got guitar players falling out of trees. He goes, But this Cam guy's really good. I said, I told you he was really good. Okay, I'm gonna hire him. Well, just don't take him away from me full-time. I need him, but unless you're gonna pay him a lot of money, then it's like, God bless, you know, go ahead.

Berly 17:42

That's amazing. So speaking of the individuals and and Jensen singing and whatnot, I'm curious. I think I saw somewhere that Jensen did like a musical in high school or something, and that was really it. Was the Impala's kind of his first baby steps to the musici musical performer that he is today?

SPEAKER_01 18:03

You know, I I I don't know for sure. I it's certainly through gas in the fire, you know. I'm sure um he'd sang with other people before. I mean, certainly um, you know, that would surprise me if he hadn't. Um, but I think he probably just you know played guitar himself and saying, I don't know if he ever played another band, but I think that's the first time it's sort of really sort of formalized. And and through that, I think when that sort of got him back into it, and then I think that's with the conventions. And he started singing with the house band a bit more, and that became so popular. The house band played so regularly, you know, that could be they got to be pretty good, you know, with Rob's band and stuff. And that's become sort of a central part of the uh the whole weekend experience, you know, with the creation entertainment, you know, things is the the band. And people, you know, like to hear they certainly want to see that that handsome young man sing. And uh, you know, uh and the fact is, you know, Jared can actually sing, not as good as Jensen, but Jared can actually sing. He can sing a sing a note on tune, but you know, he he you know, it doesn't interest him. It's not not his cup of tea, but he can, you know, he's not he's not he's no slouch, but uh but Jensen's, you know, he's he's you know he does well with that.

Berly 19:07

Agreed. Well, do you have any additional thoughts on music and the creation of supernatural or the continuation thereafter?

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Well, I think you know, and this goes back, you know, with you know Bob Singer, you know, uh and uh and you know Kripke too, you know, as well. You know, because Bob and Eric met on the show. But you know, all the other Bob Singer for show, we always insisted on on real music and spending the money for the real music. Uh occasionally you can get sometimes you can get some real deals if you do a lot of them, you know. And it's something that you know that I've taken I've learned from Bob and Bob's done on all the shows, including Supernaturals, that you you've gotta allow some money in that in that account, you know, because it just Sometimes your budgets are really limited and stuff. And I'd rather just try I'd rather have my composer write something original than have a sort of a sound alike that really sounds junky. Because just what happens is the audience goes, Well, well that no, that that's not that's not so-and-so. That's that's that's a sound alike, and it's not even that good. And you know, so take them out of there. If you can't, if you can't get it, you know. I mean, some sometimes you want to make fun of, you know, you want to make fun of a uh a tune or something or a noticeable sort of line. That's fine to use on it because you can't clear it anyway, but um, but you know, but it's a song like find the money for the songs, you know, and and and don't and try and skip on it. I mean, I'd rather have three or two really good songs in an episode, and and then rather than have five kind of knockoffs or ten knockoffs, you know. You know, I'm not I'm not and I'm not talking about source music in the background of a jukebox, you know, at the other side of the room that that's just filler in the back. You know, that's fine. That's fine. That's what library music is for, you know, that's fine. You know, and and those people need to make a living too, and they make a very nice living at it. But just you know, you you you don't want to feature a sound alike of uh carry on wayward sun, carry on. No, no. That's not Kansas. That'll be the first thing in everyone's mouth. They're not watching showing anymore. They're like, that's not Kansas.

unknown 21:04

Right.

Berly 21:05

It would take you out of the world that's being built, not contribute to it.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, you want to, you know, the music's gotta complement the scene and stuff and not take you out of it, you know, and um because it also because both visually you're trying to, you know, play on people's emotions and stuff, and and and and you build things, and music's an important part of building that along with the visuals of it, and the way the camera moves and the choices you make of the of the of the pictures uh in the edit that you show, you know. Um you know, it helps set that tone. You know, it's and sometimes you gotta be careful so you don't, you know, particularly sometimes in the scary situation, you want to or you want to jump scare, you gotta make sure you don't hint at it with the the little like you know, you see no ah, something's gonna happen, you know. Um, you know, you gotta be careful not to to tip your hand either.

Berly 21:49

So Sadie had no idea about the Impala's. Whenever I told her, I was like, oh, ask Jen Michaels about this Impala's thing. She was like, Great, what is that?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Well, it it was funny because I guess there was a band called the Impales, which we didn't know at the time. So I think one of the I I I think for the uh the the roadside episode we did with Jensen, you know, with the band, I think I think we called them the new Impalos or something, or the 67 Impalos or something, you know.

Sadie Witkowski 22:17

Give us a slightly different name, just in case, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah, I mean just sort of the Renchies sort of take it out because we weren't we were trying to rain anybody's parade. We're not trying to, you know, you know, uh not not to no offense meant to the Impalas who's uh a band, well I guess a well-established band. I'm not sure how much of an audience of theirs we're cutting into with our audience, but uh, you know, we certainly don't mean to, you know.

Sadie Witkowski 22:38

Yeah, as long as you didn't accidentally name the backing band Tame Impala's, because I think that one is actually a pretty big band.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You don't know something like that, you know, or and or you know, say you're them and then play their music badly, you know. That's that that would be an insult. So sometimes, you know, sometimes it just sort of happens. So you stick here and enjoyed being here, and uh good luck with the podcast and keep keep doing what you're doing and help celebrate the the 20th. God can't believe it's been 20 years of this pilot.

SPEAKER_05 23:06

20 years, yeah.

LA 23:10

Our next guest was also a band member in the Ampalas, although he was more of a guest artist, introducing saxophonist and camera operator Brad Creaser. Brad served as the main or a camera operator for all 15 years of Supernatural. He also cut his teeth there as a director of photography for the second unit. Brad's other work includes Smallville, Time Cop, Deep Rising, and Fire Country, just to name a few. Here's our conversation with Brad Creaser.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

There was a lot of uh a lot of talent on that crew, there's no question. Um, I just had to go into my notes and kind of review because a lot of the guys, you know, it's like Dave Carp and Cam Grips. And I was like, I should know their last names because you know, we that's like I was Brad Camera, and you know, we work with these people for so long, but you know, we we we use our last names now and again, but it's you know a little water under the bridge since uh since we were there. But uh no, they they were a great bunch. And uh I played with the band once at one of the um it was either the hundredth episode party or one of the rap parties. Uh I did once on with the band, and one of our uh uh electricians was up there doing uh the lead singer, and we did uh in excesses uh never tear us apart, and I did the sax solo.

Berly 24:29

So you play saxophone?

SPEAKER_03 24:31

I play sax, yeah. Well, I used to, I haven't played as much, but I I dusted it off and and rehearsed for that, and it uh it was a lot of fun, but I was terrified because I was like, I'm not good in front of people. I'm there's a good reason I'm behind the camera.

SPEAKER_07 24:44

So look at me bullying you and being like, no, you come after me.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

That's okay.

Berly 24:52

When did you start playing the saxophone?

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Uh oh, I I'm like from school. I was in like marching band and stage band back in my junior high school and high school in uh in growing up in Calgary, Alberta. And uh we we participated in a bunch of music festivals in Europe. Um when we were in school, we got to go to Europe in grade 11 band, which was pretty cool, and and uh won all these marching band contests uh in Europe, like in in Munich and Vienna. And yeah, it was pretty cool. So we had jazz bands, so I played sacks and we would do our own side gigs and play parties, uh corporate parties and stuff just with our own band that we made at school just to make a little extra cash on the side. But then as as time went on, I um I stopped playing less and less as I got busier as uh in the film industry. Um, but I I was doing a movie years ago and there was a saxon set that was being played by a guy, and I I bought it off production for a steal. So I got to buy my own sax. And uh that's what I ended up using um to play with the Impalas. And then they actually appeared in one of the episodes with um is it Christian King? There's a Roadhouse episode, season 14 or 15. I can't remember. I'm terrible with those. Um that uh they banned the Impala's actually were the house band in this roadhouse.

Berly 26:15

Are you on the are you in that episode? Are you in the stage?

SPEAKER_03 26:18

No, no, I was shooting. I wasn't, I'm not in it, but it was the core members, which was um our boom operator Chris was the lead guitarist, our drummer was one of the rigging grips, our keyboardist was our on-site carpenter, um, our bass player was our um uh member of the set deck department, and who else was it? Tracy. Oh yeah, another guitarist was uh also in the set deck department. So it was pretty fun. But then we had guests, like you know, even Bob Singer got up and sang a song, and Dave Riapal, our dolly group, got up and sang a song. Uh uh Alex, one of our our female stand-ins, she got up and sang an Adele song. So it's like, yeah, there was a lot of talent in the in the crew. And so that we would, you know, they would play all of our rap parties for the last couple of seasons. Instead of hiring a band, we would have the house band of our own people.

Berly 27:12

I absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

It was pretty fun. Yeah, it was really it was a good time. They uh, like I said, they were also talented. And yeah, Jensen sang with us too a couple of times, of course, because that was you know the burgeoning of his musical career, although I'm sure he's been singing a lot longer, but he's certainly taken it to a new level.

Berly 27:31

Right, yeah. Well, do you have any other stories of musicians uh behind the scenes? Did you guys have like a playlist that y'all used? I'd like to hear some more about music from the crew perspective.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Yeah, um not really. I mean, we the band was was you know involved, you know, at our our our parties and functions and stuff. And and then there was there's um a bunch of different shows shooting in Vancouver at the time. Every fall they have this thing called the Hunker Down Festival, and it's a lot of um bands made up of crew members from different shows shooting in town, like um Supergirl had their own band and and Superman and Lois had their own band, and Supernatural had a band, and so they would all go and be at this one hall for one night, and it was kind of a a showdown of the film people's um uh music, film people, film people's bands from the crews around town, which was was really cool. Um, I went to a couple of them, and again, you just see how much talent there is in in you know the technical crew um and the behind the scenes people that don't normally get the the uh the spotlight. So that's why it was great when they wrote that roadhouse episode and put uh Limpala as as the Roadhouse band. So that was that was pretty cool. That was great.

Berly 28:54

Yeah, Jim Michael, he he told us about that. He was big, he was very proud of that.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Yeah, yeah. And um, of course, we had Rick Springfield Rick Springfield on for a while, but um he was kind of a cool customer. He eventually warmed up to us, but you know, he never really played any music for us, but it was kind of kind of cool to have him there because you know he's was well known. He was just a little bit, you know. Just a bit. Um but beyond that, no, it was really just for our our own fun. And even, you know, some of our our rap parties or our uh pre-Christmas hiatus parties, we would have quite a rollicking uh party in the studio on the last night before Christmas break. And quite often, you know, the music, the guitars got broken out, and we would be there in the studio um playing on the sets and having a few beverages, maybe.

Berly 29:47

And uh yeah, I was about to say some memory that you're not going to share with me just popped into that brain of yours.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

I don't want to give it all up, but um, yeah, no, it was it was a good time. It was, you know, just just for us, and like especially well, again, okay, here there's the one episode with um uh Curtis um Metatron and Rob Benedict, and they're in that bar, and Rob sings a song, and we did like a little music video, but it was just when I hear that music now, it takes me to a time, like it was such a special moment. And and Bob Singer was directing that episode, and he's very musical, he's really into his music, and just having to shoot this performance of uh Rob singing um Davis fairly well. Fairly well, thank you. But it was that that was a really special moment on set, like you could just see how it just captivated the crew, you could hear a pin drop, but we were doing this nice, you know. We I think we had a a technocrane and we're just doing these nice moves in on Rob and coming around him and um in a great little bar set. And then of course we ended up hanging out on that set at rap, having maybe a few drinks. Um, but you know, it's just those those kind of moments when we get treated to music. And then quite often uh we would spend time uh in Jared or Jensen's trailer after rap and having you know a libation, and um they would start taking out the guitars and singing if Rob was there, if we had a special guest star and Jensen would play percussion or grab a guitar and we'd have these little impromptu sessions in in their trailers, which was pretty cool for just a limited, you know, there was a few of us that had immunity to be allowed into the trailers, the uh favored ones on the crew. But uh yeah, it was you know, it was definitely a big part of it. And then, of course, now whenever I hear you know, Eye of the Tiger or ACDC, it's like it's always just supernatural coming to me. Like Jensen on the car, like when we shot that whole Eye of the Tiger, I had no idea what was going on. Like we were we were doing that episode, and it was um, I think it was Phil, Uncle Phil Sigrisha directing, and we're all set up to go. We have two cameras, and then all of a sudden we hear this music, and Jensen's in the empower, but we don't see him, and then he sits up. Like, I had no idea that was happening, like that was really spontaneous, at least for me. Maybe I'm the only one that didn't get the memo, but I'm like, Oh, okay, we're shooting this, so just follow along, just go with it. And you know, it became it's it's iconic now, and it it was so cool to be part of that.

Berly 32:19

Um, so you were behind the camera during that.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Yeah, yeah. I was offering one of the two cameras.

Berly 32:23

You just ran with it.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

Yeah, we're just like, nope, we're doing something, okay, you know. But we were notorious for our gag reels, like we would we would hit the button on almost everything, and of course, if a scene broke up, we'd have that, and uh, we would put slates on if there was something happening, we would we would roll camera when nobody knew because you know, I think some of our I think our gag reels were better than some of the episodes. We could have done a feature film with just our gag reels for all the seasons because I just never get tired of watching them because it was just so much fun. We were so lucky to have have that experience with these guys. And I was just back in Vancouver a couple weeks ago, and we did our first crew panel for creation at the Vancouver convention, which was really fun. And then J and J came out, and Misha came out in the middle of it too, and uh, you know, we get to see everybody backstage, and it's still just like a family, it's just so cool that um we've been together this long and and it's deeply a part of us, and we're all still in touch. I can keep in touch with a lot of them. Um, I look like I'm doing another podcast with Rich and Rob uh in a couple weeks. Um, so they're SPN then and now, and uh that's always fun because I just those guys, you know, we have so much fun together. And I got to sit in with Rich invited me to do a film school panel at the last convention as well, because a bunch of um really intelligent questions. People want to know, like the process of shooting a TV show and what's involved. And um, and Rich became a really great director, and we've been really good friends ever since he joined the show, and uh we still keep in touch. So that was that was a bonus for sure.

Berly 33:55

All right. Well, I have one I have one more music question that I wanted to ask you. Sure thing. We haven't been able to get a call scheduled with the music supervisor Alexandra. Uh we're we're trying to chase her down, so we're trying to do that, and we haven't been able to get one scheduled with Phil either. So we haven't gotten a whole lot of background information on the music licensing, but like with Eye of the Tiger, obviously that song was playing on set while y'all were filming. How often did that happen?

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Not very, not very often. I mean, I think there was more there seemed to be more free reign with the music in the earlier seasons, and then I don't know if budgetarily it became too expensive to license the real music, like the ACD song, uh ACDC and uh Eye of the Tiger. Like, I mean the thing is I don't even think that Eye of the Tiger was in the episode, and they just played it at the end after the credits. Like it's that has nothing to do with the episode. Um, but they put it in anyways, but they must have made a payoff. But yeah, Phil, Phil is the music guy. If you can get, if you can get to Phil, he's uh he organized or he even um produced uh uh albums for a local band in Vancouver, um Petunia and the Vipers, and uh which was a really cool kind of I don't know, funky kind of hillbilly, folksy, really great music though. And and he produced two albums for them and shot a couple of videos with some of our crew for Petunia in Vancouver. And even even went on on uh took my my friend Matt, who was one of my assistants and later camera operator, uh, took him with him and they went down to some roadhouse in this in the States on the, I think in the Oregon coast or Washington and shot a video with Petunia and the Vipers uh doing it. And Phil put together this whole uh little documentary package. But uh yeah, he's he's the music guy for sure. Phil's feels pretty great.

LA 35:55

Our final guest for this episode has been featured on In Defense of Fandom and Denim Rap Nightmares before, albeit in a different role. We spoke with a multi-talented Ben Edlin about his experience being possessed with the extra-dimensional being that is Ghost Tiger. Yes, you did hear that right. When not being inhabited with Ghost Tiger, Ben is a television writer and producer with work on Angel Gotham, Revolution, Firefly, and he created the tip. In the world of supernatural, he was on the writing team for seven seasons and created beloved characters like Gabe Tigerman's Andy, as well as created some of Castill's most iconic scenes. Here's our interview with Ben Edlund speaking on behalf of Ghost Tiger.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

I am Ben Edland. Uh, as regards uh Supernatural, I was on the show for about eight years. I was an executive producer and a writer and uh and a director here and there. Um, and then uh and I actually have written music for that show, which is cool. I even uh have a vocal on Ghost Facers. Uh I'm I'm like the kind of fluety, almost falsetto Ghostfacers. And at one point I had I did all the verses, but I think they re-recorded it at some time. I maybe I'm wrong, but like it was broadcast with me doing a lot more of it. We did that in the it was, I think me and Chris um just uh so that was really fun. But then uh I've been involved personally in music for a long time and I've done other music for different shows. I wrote music for Angel. That was a pretty they had some cool, like uh we did a pretend children's show, and I wrote the all the music for that in uh episode called Smile Time. Yeah, I've been uh I've been doing music for a long time. Around 2011, I started to get uh I was I started to be uh approached first by mostly just striation. It was like stripes were happening. This is gonna sound a little psychedelic and be a little bit uh uh but I've never backed away from you know um demonstrating myself as only a marginally mentally stable individual. So this is in keeping with my my my mystique, but uh yeah, so stripes and then um and then at one point I I had no costume for a uh Halloween party that was I was just uh suddenly supposed to go to, and I ended up painting my face up like a tiger, and it seemed to function as some kind of uh I am I am the un uh I am the I am an involuntary channel for an extra ultra-terrestrial body thief called the Ghost Tiger, who will occasionally uh co-opt my human form and then make me uh uh physically, corporeally, but I don't get to go. He takes over, and then he goes and uh fronts a band called Ghost Tiger and Friends. Um, I mean I'm involved in every part that's like hard and takes like for you know that yeah, it's like homework. Like practicing, scheduling, all there for that. My goodness, and like, and then he's just like, Oh great, thanks. Uh and then he comes by, um, which is great because I was I that broke the barrier for me to step in front of crowds. I had always wanted to, but just was not inclined to do it. I've mostly done writing and behind the scenes work. I was never I wanted to, but I was also not someone who wanted to be in front of a camera, so I don't know, it worked out. Our bassist, Jeremy, happens to be a lawyer, so we've worked out a binding contract. Uh, I don't know why Ghost Tiger accepts it, but he does. I think it's a game that he likes to play called Law, right? He thinks it's fun. Anyway, so we uh we are an art rock band. We are on the verge of putting out an album, which I'm very excited to buy. And we have uh three songs um out on Spotify already.

Berly 40:23

I've actually listened to them before. I I they're like a Sublime meets black keys. Like I love them.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

That's so great. I love those two bands, so that works for me. I I wish we had better organ in our band because black keys are awesome with that, like hard-hitting organ. I play the keys, so I can say, you know, well, sorry, ghost tiger, but I'm doing it. The the rule is 50% of the time I can say it's not real, and it does it's not happening, and then 50% of the time I'm supposed to say it's happening. I didn't make up the rule. All right, so uh those songs will be on the album, but then we've got seven more songs on the album, and we're very excited about it, and it's uh yeah, and then again, like where's Ghost Tiger? No, it uh absolutely nowhere. And I'm like trying to figure out which vinyl company to talk to, and I'm emailing and doing all of this stuff, which couldn't be further from my own personal forte, and it's just uh yeah, we need some we need some help, but uh uh at any rate, that's coming out soon. We're gonna try and put out a vinyl of the album and then you know put it on the into the the ether as well.

Sadie Witkowski 41:46

Right, have have the physical copy and also the uh nebulous internet copy, whatever that might mean.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Something to touch, something to listen to, and then uh maybe something to wear. And then we'll try and we're also just horrible at getting bookings, although we've done great. We had a residency at the um hotel cafe for a while, and we you know, we get around here and there, but then we we stop for like months. Uh so uh we are, I do need to find the means by which that drum can be beaten on a regular basis. Uh so uh it's even thank you so much for uh uh wanting to talk about it. Because it it puts it on the to-do list, and I go, Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Sadie Witkowski 42:28

What are some of the musical influences that have inspired Ghost Tiger and Friends? Because I mean Burley already described it really well, but also it's like it's got some really interesting, like absurdist lyricism in it that I really enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

Yeah, it's very much lyrically driven in a lot of cases. Uh it I used to think of it as Morrissey and Randy Newman getting into a fight. But uh you know, it's uh yeah, so it's very narrative, you know, like there's a lot of narratives in the lyrics, and there's a sort of uh an overall like message. Oh god, it's whatever the hell there is an agenda, and there is a world view, in fact, a cosmic view that's being put forward, which is not new, it's quite old. It's it's really uh so Ghost Tiger stands for two things. This is not the music part, the lyrics part. Go ahead. He stands for a pro-cannibalism stance, which I don't agree with. I don't even like eating seafood, I would not eat a person. Um, I would not eat a person. I don't like what people do, and I don't like what they get up to, I don't like where they put themselves. I like people, but I wouldn't eat them. But he wants to promote a worldwide shift to a cannibalism and recycling of human materials culture, right? So we use the bone and the leather and all of it. Uh, he thinks that would be great. He's also a tiger, so pushing the idea of eating people is not like uh a big surprise. And then the other one is he's uh basically a pan psycho uh psychism. Like he's a consciousness predates matter. We are invited. This place is here in part because we're here, as much as it's here in part because fiddler crabs are here, but they don't make as much noise as we do. They're just going about their business. They don't look in the mirror and go, Am I a good fiddler crab? Well, that that other fiddler crab down the way is a better fiddler crab than I am, with more fiddler crab accoutrement, right? And uh, no, so uh it is that's only because they don't have mirrors. Uh they could happen across one. They could down down there, you don't know what goes on. Man, haven't you ever seen like a hermit crab in like an afran bottle instead of a shell? And you go like, oh well, they're making do. Um, anyway, I'm sorry, I'm going all over the place. What I mean to say is the following it is a an exercise in consciousness, and as much as everything means something and matters quite a bit, it's also, you know, very much in keeping with all of the all the folks on the spiritual path. Like it's it's also it's not something to be sweated at the level at which most people who are at each other's throats are sweating it. So he has this kind of touchy-feely, I don't know, hippie message, and he won't stop, right? Yeah, so that's the lyrical side, and then he will freely take from my own personal experience, which is a form of violation, and then just splat it up there. He calls me Mr. Quiet Desperation. Yeah, fuck you. I mean, like uh um anyway, so uh, and then music, you know, it's somewhere between it's like pop and musicals, it's like uh and it's sort of crashing in there, like it is sort of like bits and pieces of a musical that's being hauled out of another space by a unreliable in every way narrator, Ghost Tiger. So yeah, but it's like the whole idea is if you like the music, it's not just oh, I like their haircuts and I like their choice of clothing. This is an entire world. If you like this music, you can actually, there's a whole mythos, there's a whole worldview, it connects with other very ancient points of like perspective on existence, and it's uh yeah, it's uh it can be a lot of fun if you get into it. Not very many people even know it exists. I but that's you know, uh, that's not my problem.

Sadie Witkowski 46:55

Unintentionally secret knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

Yes, yes. Oh my gosh, it's occult, it's literally a cult, it's the occult.

Sadie Witkowski 47:03

No, I love that. I love that there's so much more depth layered within it, and it's not just like, oh, wouldn't this be a funny idea? You know, it's it's there's a lot more going on. Now I gotta, now I gotta get out some occult books and start tracking all the lyrics, figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Yeah, oh I mean, yeah, uh I like it is occult in terms of being hidden. Oh, I'm wondering if there's any literally occult. I don't think there's mostly it references children's songs. Like we have a song called Coming Round the Mountain that has Camptown Races in it and someone's in the kitchen with Dinah, like more like so something about Ghost Diger wants to be like a children's television presenter for grown-ups.

Sadie Witkowski 47:50

A little bit like Cat in the Hat, but for adults with a lot more references going on, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

And recently he's been really uppity uh because we're trying to make an album, and he's got ideas, and he wants to like start getting, he wants to do things like sit down with celebrities and talk about like one is he wants to sit down with someone and say, we need to talk about bismuth. The element, yes, because it's so awesome, right? And then, like, have you looked at it, right? And then I don't know if they're making movies or whatever they're doing, but have they sat down and looked at bismuth, right? And then you just confront them with bismuth. You go, look at that. Do you think the Mayans were looking at bismuth? Maybe as a design, uh it's like there, there's a if you look at those crystal, you know, the crystal bismuth square structural.

Sadie Witkowski 48:46

They're incredible, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:48

That's like that's anyway. Uh that would just be a starting point. I don't know where we'd end up. So uh anyway, yes, this is something that is either never going to happen or may happen with great force. Uh the like the emergence of Ghost Tiger uh on the scene, you know, if an album comes out, at least there'll be an album. But I've noticed that you can put out an album and it's almost like not putting out an album in this environment, right? Oh yes, in the in the profusion of everyone's self-expression at this time, now alloyed by a whole other uh tributary of AI saying, I'm also here, and I love black velvet paintings. That's what they all look like to me. But like there is a huge amount of output there, but I think we're gonna add to it.

Sadie Witkowski 49:34

Yeah, no, I'm excited. I'm excited to hear this whole album. I also I wanted to ask specifically about the song Why Not Eat the Dead, which you kind of touched on because it's all about you know reduce, reuse, recycle, including human body part.

SPEAKER_05 49:48

Yeah, yeah.

Sadie Witkowski 49:49

I it I think it's the catchiest of the ones that you have out right now. Like, I really enjoy that song.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

Awesome, yeah. I mean, it's it's certainly it's good, it's got the it's most up tempo. It I would say it is it's meant to be a jingle for cattle for cannibalism. No one made one after all this time. Shouldn't someone? And and really a part of that is like, okay, this is 50% now. I'm talking uh uh uh terrestrial reality, you think so? It could also be a strategy where, like, if you start putting forward cannibalism as one of your planks, right? They might take some of your other planks a little better.

Sadie Witkowski 50:33

Right, but this is the extreme idea.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

We got cannibalism and uh you know just the sort of a German idealist position, right? Like maybe matter is not the first thing, right? And they go, but you don't have to eat people or make piano keys out of their bones necessarily, you don't have to, right? And then they go, like, all right, I like how they're amenable to my resistance to that, and they have other things for me to concentrate on within their yes, a very overton window shifting um stance, I would say. Yes, yes, but also like when you look at us and how we have this crazy sanctity associated with our bodies, very similar to the sort of human-centric thing that really drives almost everything that we operate under, and so like shaking that a little loose, picturing you hauling into a stake of grandma, right? And and like you know, maybe making a chair.

Sadie Witkowski 51:46

I I think you and Ghost need to do a um do a residency at Kutnahora, which is uh the bone church. It's uh an ossuary in the Czech Republic where the underground they've made an entire chandelier of human bones from I think it's like 13th century plague victims. It's actually incredible art. I was like, this is beautiful. Don't lick that, don't don't lick it, but otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

There's one, uh there's great the catacombs in Paris are crazy. I've been there, and also there's the the the there's a monastery in Rome that has something like that, which is these like art pieces made of all of these um bodies. A monk was there in I think something more like the 15th or 16th century, but and just there's like children skeletons in the ceiling that are made to look like angels with bone wings and stuff, and you're like, whoa, hey everybody, take it easy. But I mean, like, yeah, that would be a great uh that would make a fine. I'm sure that somebody would tune in. Ghost Tiger started uh preaching uh cannibalism and recycling from the what was it called from the Oswari that you were describing?

Sadie Witkowski 53:01

Osware is in uh Kutna Hora is the name of the town, just outside of um the capital of the Czech Republic. Um Prague. Prague, just outside Prague. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Wow, amazing. Very cool. I would go there. I hear Prague's beautiful.

Sadie Witkowski 53:14

I did want to ask, I mean, since this is technically a supernatural series, you said you wrote some music for the show as well. What was it like writing, like writing for a show where you know it's not about you performing it or even something that's necessarily like a message that you want to share so much as how do we fit this into the narrative flow? Like, how does that process look like?

SPEAKER_02 53:33

I mean, I yeah, I I guess it it doesn't change for me in in a sense. Like to me, the collaborative nature of television is great, everyone's on a raft, we're going somewhere, and there are little victories in all of that when you get some of your sort of personal verbatim essence into this giant thing, which turns out to be way more epic than anyone who was in that writer's room suspected when we were doing it. Like we it would be a lot of hubris to believe we'd be talking about it this long after its cancellation and that its cancellation would be as long after when we were sitting in the room. Like, it's very it's immense. So for me, it's like or anyone maybe, but it it's not that different because you're just like trying to throw these things into the public transom, and it's sort of like little molecules of your own essence added to molecules of so many other people's essences. But like in the case of like Ghost Facers, which was the song, you know, I was in the process of being really moved by the idea of like taking over supernatural with this other pilot, and I was like really in a form of like creative ecstasy that we were like gonna go that way, and I thought, like, yeah, this is gonna be great. I was watching ghost hunters, I was getting my head around it. And then I think when I pitched it though, I had already I already had the theme, right? And I already had the name. So I came into the writer's room where with uh with Eric and I was like, I started seeing ghost facers, like he's kind of like sweetly easy to embarrass, you know what I mean? Like he won't wear a hat because that's too much. Like so when you start openly singing in his face, you maybe gain some advantage because he's anyway. So, but it was like ghost facers, they face the ghost when others will not. Ghost ghost facers, they stay in the kitchen when the kitchen gets hot, and like and so like that was like part of the initial pitch, and yeah, so it became it. I it was so it was all just so much fun, is basically like it, and that's really only uh what I try to stay in is if possible a zone of creative, supportive kind of if it's fun, then it's going absolutely great because you know that you're in that mildly elated state from which good things come. So that was cool. Uh, and then in terms of going through the process, it what's really nice is like you can kind of be a part of the the idea. I was able to sing on it and like kind of develop the the melody and then have it get just picked up by Chris and the everyone else and turned into it, right? And it's like the it's a very pleasurable way of doing that, and uh sort of going, all right, you got that, great, I'm gonna go do some other thing, and then it's on the air. Like my prior complaints were handled in this case. And I mean, you know, supernatural, it was like a very, yeah, let's do that kind of place. I've been fortunate to be in a couple of those, you know, like creative situations where it's really looking to find new forms to inhabit and co-opt and subvert. And so, you know, that's a very in that sort of string of meta episodes that get increasingly meta in the run of supernatural, you know, um, the idea that it's such a twisted idea that the ghost facers, formerly the hellhounds, are pitching a show to the network that airs supernatural, right? Is like, and then it changes in the midst of supernatural to become in the midst of the pilot to end as an actual supernatural episode. Like all of those like uh formal, you know, pressure testing, uh, trickstery kind of like uh choices were encouraged uh on this show, and I think you know that's gotta be part of why people live sort of in the world of it, is that it has it it does open ideas about itself and just about entertainment and media and all of it because it practices these very peculiar inversions, and it's a it's a really interesting bit of culture that I'm happy to have been a part of. And then uh yeah, Ghost Facers.

Sadie Witkowski 58:23

Yeah, it it built quite a like an both an open world and also like enough kind of tools in the sandbox that anybody can step in and kind of play with and be like, well, if we think toolpas are like this, then we could expect that and and you know, yes, not just fan fiction, but like obviously that's that's where my brain goes.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

Totally, yeah, yeah, of course. And that's like great though, right? What an amazing space that that that's opened up with all of these pieces. And like uh, I mean, I saw Misha's post recently on the 20th of like, and I I think I was terrified I don't think I was on my little social media for anywhere of that week. I should have said, yeah, that was good, but I didn't. But anyway, it was good. I think it was good. It was good that it came on, and I was happy about the 20th anniversary. Anyway, Misha said uh, like he was going over everything positive that they've done through random acts of kindness and all of the different sort of fan supported or driven altruistic endeavors. Like it's insane. Like it blows the doors off of, I'm gonna say, I think it blows the doors off of the Roddenberry. I think they're doing more, yeah. Like uh, you know, you'll see a little spaceship uh Klingons here and there, maybe building a house for habitat for the uh humanity. I think that's great, but I do believe uh supernatural got it beat.

Sadie Witkowski 59:45

I'm not gonna disagree. It was like a quarter million last time I checked that was raised. Crazy, it's insane.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

Yeah, it's all I mean, that's incredible. Maybe not, but I I'm I'm at a point in my life where I can get into a real beef with Star Trek fans. Who cares?

Sadie Witkowski 1:00:02

We will not be airing that section of the interview.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

I'm just gonna bring it on. I'm ready.

Sadie Witkowski 1:00:08

Well, uh, do you have so speaking of the show of Supernatural, do you have like a favorite uh needle drop moment in the show where you're like this was the perfect use of this song?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Or I mean there's so many, they're so good. I for me personally, the uh renegade at the end of uh Night Shifter is like, but it's also it was a combination of things. It happens to be a song that I was like uh um because that's season two, and they're already like deep into the muscle car culture, American Road and classic rock. And so, like, but they hadn't, I was like, You guys, have you thought about using Renegade? Right, and they were like, ooh, and then I like it was right when I was doing this episode, and the way that Phil, I believe it was Phil Segretia, lays in uh like and Todd everybody, the way the music lays in, and they edit it very carefully, like they split the beat and they bring in dialogue, and then they hit like it's beautifully done, right? But there's a lot of I mean, I would say also this is classic, but I think O Death is another one of those moments of like it's about the combination of the music and the editing and the way that he like kills the guy, and it's like it's the shooting. That was another obviously really good one. I mean, they're all over, also just the way when I first signed on to Supernatural. I I knew uh Eric for for I had I'd known him from before, and we had talked about maybe I was maybe gonna work on Tarzan. So we knew each other to a degree, and then he's like making this show called Supernatural, and I was like, screw you, like you can't just take the word supernatural, right? That's not gonna work, that's crazy, that's just too generic, right? And then he he took the word supernatural, he took it. Okay, good job. I didn't realize you could do that. My next show is called Gravity. No, uh uh, like the and then Wayward Sun to twin that with the identity of supernatural in this way where it functions like a national anthem, and it has this like incredibly potent emotional force for this subset of the population, many of whom would never have heard this song. Because this is like an old song for your dad's this is your dad's fucking song, right? Like it's not your era, it's not the era of most of the people exposed to supernatural, but it is their song now, right? And it sort of speaks also to the living nature of something like a piece of music like that. It has found a whole new depth, almost a depth that has repolarized the identity of that song in an almost like time travel way, where you can't go back to before supernatural to fully like it has it's just in terms of like what can happen to music and what can feed into or under its ages, right? Like that song is an amazing thing that is now like a a signpost to this whole other world of like arcane specificity. You know, I like that crap. I mean, I I I I most all I really do is make stuff up and think about made stuff that was made up. So I really like the flowing reality of that thing and how it moves through gains power, uh like gains presence from these other, you know, tangent contributions. It's uh it's wild, it's good stuff.

Sadie Witkowski 1:04:08

Yeah, good stuff. I mean, I love that it is, you're right. Thematically, you would expect Kansas to be like one of like something your dad listened to that you couldn't even get into. And he's like, fine, I'll give you some more modern music you might like. It's also kind of the show itself, is that like two young guys on a CW show, but also who are trying so hard to emulate or not emulate their dad? And so it does become this like reflecting on history and which pieces do we want to take, and which pieces do we want to take the kind of like stylized one, you know? It's like this idea of like, you know, cowboy movies. You're like, okay, cowboy movies are different than the actual history of cowboys and and all those kinds of themes. It's that same kind of like reflection idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

I agree, yeah, and that's a point too, is that it really literally was them listening to their dad's music, driving around in their dad's car. Like it was, in fact, a sort of a their connection to that body of music may almost be viewed as a sign of the familial dysfunction of that family, right? Like, I didn't take you to school, I didn't introduce you to culture, I taught you how to kill ghosts and listen to Kansas. Like uh someone's gotta do it. It's just all of that stuff's really interesting. And then I mean, like, I've been in so many situations where I've seen not so many, I've been in a couple of situations that felt endemic where I've seen someone of my generation trying to convince someone of any next, you know, subsequent generation, you know, you gotta listen to this Jethro Tull, right? It's gonna change your life. And I'm going like, it's not, it's not gonna change their life. Stop trying to make them listen to this weird, stringy ballad from the 70s with a fucking flute over it. Stop it, right? It's not gonna work, but it works if you read contextual. Virtualize it and turn it into scripture, right? Which is what Wayward Son had done to it, right? And then it's like because that song's amazing. The production on that song, the like the the where the places it goes, the the breadth of it, it is a piece of art that should not be just discarded and left bes beside the road, as is many of the you know works that we look at in the rearview mirror. Yeah, talk about recycle and reuse. Eating all the meat, eating all the meat on that one.

Sadie Witkowski 1:06:35

Yeah, we we picked that one clean for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Snout, snout tail, hoof.

Berly 1:06:40

So whenever I think of Ben Edland, I think of yeah, you okay, I think of several of the characters that you've created thus far. And one of the first ones that pops into my mind, I imagine that Sadie's gonna be on the same page with me on this, is Andy. I love him. So I'm curious if he were to have a show of some sort or a movie or something, and he is making a dramatic entrance into a bar or set scene, whatever it is. What is his needle drop as he enters the room?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

Right. Um I mean, actually, what we used was good, which I think was Stonehenge. That's like the needle drop on his like van, I think, or I forget, or maybe when he's first like walking through. I believe it was Stonehenge from Spinal Tap. That is an acceptable answer, if that's the way well, no, but that's pre-existent, it requires no creativity on my part. This is true. I mean, he is one thing I will say is I wish that he didn't get killed. I wish that he was a character that lived alongside that because I thought that um was it Gabriel Tigerman? I thought he did a great job, and he was a very interesting, he would have been amazing, like in season eight, for example, and like he is someone you can go to. And if you or season at the end of season five, if you need to go into this pharmacy place, let's get Andy, and he's just walking in and going, like, get out of here. You don't you want to give me that? And like, I mean, like it would have been lovely, but we had a very high kill count on that show, but anyway, um, yeah, if he had survived, well, he was about like it would have been don't worry, be happy by Bobby McFerrin. Because basically, you don't like he just puts you at ease. You're like, you don't don't worry about it, and then you're like, Oh, I'm not gonna worry about it. And he's like, Don't ever again worry about it. Okay, I'll never again worry about it. Stops, stop smoking, okay. I'll stop smoking.

Berly 1:08:48

Like, um Andy would never say that. Stop smoking, depending on what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

Okay, no, of course. No, you he would say, Um, uh, take me to the dispensary is what he would say. Um, but you know, stop vaping nicotine. What's the point? It doesn't make you look cool, so I don't know what it's for. I don't I don't either.

Berly 1:09:12

I don't understand. I don't either. Uh, and then a serious question. You had mentioned uh earlier in our discussion that you do vocals and keys for guitar. I do that. Do you play any other instruments?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:25

I play guitar, it's a very self-taught mode of guitar that is a scratchy, scrubbly, almost percussive thing. I like it, but it is uh limited, limited. And then uh I am uh um actually trained, I was trained on the recorder.

Berly 1:09:43

Ah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:44

I was trained on the recorder, I was in a recorder orchestra in middle school, which is is like hell on earth, like a recorder orchestra with 30 different recorders, like alto to like bait, like no, it's it's anyway.

Sadie Witkowski 1:10:01

So uh hell is a waiting line in front of just a recorder orchestra.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:05

That's the new yeah, you don't even know, you're just in a circle going slowly around it. You don't even know how bad it is. You go now. We're going to do uh um suicide is painless with a recorder orchestra.

Berly 1:10:22

Did you still have to do that, Sadie? I know I had to do it. Yes, oh yeah, I think we had to buy our recorders too. So I don't move to do it anymore, though. And that makes me sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

Were you in a recorder orchestra?

Berly 1:10:33

Yeah, okay. Awesome, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:35

Okay, I didn't, yeah.

Berly 1:10:36

It made us stand outside on like the the rafter type things, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

Yeah, you were on the bleachers doing it. Yeah, what whose idea was it to after the first one was made? How did they go, let's do it again?

Sadie Witkowski 1:10:52

I learned I learned we had to learn smoke on the water, and that song was rude to me for like a decade. You're like, I hate this song.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:01

How can we make this impossibly shrill? Oh yeah. So uh those are other uh instruments that I I have played. Yeah, I mean, piano is what I sort of learned how to be with music on. My father was a uh kind of a not a bad lounge jazz pianist and and also like a polymath. So he played like I mean, among other things he was doing, he played like saxophone and brass instruments and accordion and like he was just all over the place. Um that was a real in uh demonstration of it's what you need, I think, to be authorized to even begin on that road early. Is music in the home demonstrated by a family member where you go, well, this is clearly a possibility, this is a thing that exists, and then the the tools to make it on your own. We had an upright piano, um, we had a lot of things like vibraphone, we had a bunch of stuff around. So I was uh, you know, I mean I've said that I think before, just very, very fortunate in terms of my upbringing to have like this all these sort of spheres of creativity that were already being tested by my dad, so the tools were around, and I could sneak in and mess up his tools when he wasn't around. Where's my hammer? Uh but like it was a very uh fortunate place to to get a little precocious with that stuff, you know, because not everyone would have the opportunity as a kid to be as exposed as early, and that's I think what played into my advantage, apart from natural charm, of course.

Berly 1:12:53

All right, so we have piano, recorder, guitar. We'll there will be a recorder solo on the next ghost hike.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:02

You're right, that should be like uh and really like blast it out. Like, um, okay, uh, I'll take that challenge.

Sadie Witkowski 1:13:10

Challenging, yeah. Yeah, make it like a hidden track at the end of one track where there's like, you know, like 30 seconds of silence, and then it's the hidden track.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

It's gotta be on our oh god, yeah, that's good. Like well, it's gonna be in the future. But uh it's been it's been great having a band. Like having a band is a thing that for a long time I did not have the opportunity to have because you have to really how do you get one? You have to say you want one, and then you have to ask people to be in it and all this stuff, and then they have to stay. So, like to have that, it's a great little collective where you put music into this human machine and you start to like fine-tune it and and develop it, and everyone's contributions are it's just a great thing to have. So I would recommend it.

Berly 1:14:07

Did you recruit this band or did Ghost Tiger recruit this band? And what was that process like?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

So it sort of fell together in uh a way where I there was a point where maybe I was Ghost Tiger more often. I mean, this is true, and I would be like wandering around in this getup. So like I would be maybe in a tree in Venice or like on the boardwalk, things like that. And then my uh I uh Ben had a friend named uh Drew, um, who was one of essentially the founding co-member of the band, where Ghost Tiger had begun to want attention and then like started to understand the music and all of these different elements of culture could actually give him attention, then he could start spouting all this nonsense. So ultimately it was I was the first representative of Ghost of Ghost Tiger, and I was like, Drew, I think this thing might need to happen, and then uh he was like, All right, I I guess it should. And so then we started playing like little places uh around Venice. We our first place we would play is this place called the Talking Stick. So I would paint up and then Ghost Tiger, and he would go and we would do a duo up at the talking stick, and then Carol, who is Queen Kikuyu in our band, you know, she saw us and she was like, Oh, I gotta take part in this. And uh then uh we uh and then I uh like Jeremy was uh a friend who it just people got drawn in. There was a there's a thing Ghost Tiger wants, and then people get drawn in, and then they get drawn in, right? So yeah, he started it. And I mean it's ultimately he's functioning as it's a sort of a an idea system, but it was a very compelling, overwhelming idea system, which incorporated a transformation I had to go through and like periods of sublimated autonomy. So, like, yeah, I don't know. It's been an interesting ride. I uh I mean, like, why not? What are you gonna do?

Sadie Witkowski 1:16:29

You don't need your body the whole time, might as well let him up and go at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:31

I love naps, number one.

Berly 1:16:33

Oh yeah, they're great.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:34

Oh my gosh, some people don't.

Berly 1:16:37

No, I love them. I love them.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:38

Oh man, a good nap is great. And then I like waking up and go, oh no, is it daytime or nighttime? I like being confused, I like being dizzy. I like a lot of things that maybe people aren't in love with, but like so, like, I mean, as long as you're not always dizzy, right? Or always like can't remember exactly what day it is or where you are physically on the planet. I like those moments, I think they're kind of amazing, right? Um, as long as they're not signs of a greater or deeper condition. Um yeah, anyway, uh so Ghost Tiger is an altered state that really has only cost me money. Yeah, I mean, it's really been a sinkhole, like a money pit. He actually bought he uh he had my he had my bank card and he bought $700 worth of shares of hip hop. And we're like, what the fuck, man? What do you mean? And we're like, now we've got hip hop, we can use it. I'm like, you can't off a guy on the boardwalk, you don't buy shares in hip-hop.

Berly 1:17:48

He thought that's how uh Eric Kripke got supernatural, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:51

Buy shares in the supernatural, maybe. I don't know. Although it's interesting because Ghost Tiger is a form of angel, as far as I can tell, which is strange because I started to work on this shit and then became afflicted, so careful.

Berly 1:18:08

Okay, okay. The cannibalism would make you think otherwise, but I I buy it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:12

I mean, you know, not in not all angels were up to. I mean, he's not an angel pursuant to supernatural, which is a fictional work. That's just fiction. I mean, let's be serious. This is real, this is real, so it's you know, similar to, but not the same.

Sadie Witkowski 1:18:30

Got it, got it. Distorted reflection. Don't worry about it, it'll be fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:34

Yeah, I would say that that's don't worry, be happy.

Sadie Witkowski 1:18:37

Let's go. I really loved all of these conversations, like, truly, but I really want Ben slash Ghost Tiger to take our challenge seriously and create a recorder orchestra song. Like, maybe he needs to do carry on Wayward Sun. I don't know, that might be a nightmare, but I'm in for it. I'm ready.

Berly 1:18:59

I'm still waiting for his get ready with me video. Where he does a get ready with me as he transforms into Ghost Tiger with his face paint and everything. That would be fun. Brad Craser cracked me up as well. During that interview, there were so many moments where he was clearly recalling something and he'd just smile really big. And I'd know, like, okay, that's a story I'm not gonna get to hear. The inside jokes that will never come outside. We'll never know.

Sadie Witkowski 1:19:29

Nor should we, right? We weren't there. Jim's interview was so great, but just the fact that we had to cut it down because he knows everybody who knows everybody else in music, in TV. I was like, my god, you gotta stop name-dropping. I can't keep track of them all. LA, am I the only one who did not know that the Impalas was a band before this time?

LA 1:19:51

Oh no, I did not.

Sadie Witkowski 1:19:52

Oh, thank God. I was like, How have I not known this? I've been watching the show, I've gone to the cons. No one was like, ah, yes, the crew band, the Impalas. I had no idea. It was so embarrassing.

LA 1:20:02

I feel like really you do, right? Because I feel like maybe you told me, but I didn't really register it.

Berly 1:20:08

I do know that, and I don't know why I know that because it was something I knew when we were first sitting down and deciding to do this music special where I went randomly, oh, we should invite people from the Impalas, and y'all were both like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I don't know why I know this. I I couldn't tell you, but I did know. I didn't know they were in an episode of the show. That was something new. New for all of us, at least one new thing for all of us.

unknown 1:20:35

Yeah.

Berly 1:20:37

And I know that Ben Edlin doesn't want attention. Ghost Tiger does. Correct.

Sadie Witkowski 1:20:42

Ben Edlin, not on stage, only Ghost Tiger.

Berly 1:20:50

Now for the show's credits. This season is a co-production between Denim Wrapped Nightmares and In Defense of Fandom.

Sadie Witkowski 1:20:59

Cover art for In Defense of Fandom was designed by Liz Hand.

Berly 1:21:04

Cover art for Denim Wrapped Nightmares was designed by Rain Zealman.

Sadie Witkowski 1:21:10

Music featured in this episode was by Ghost Tiger.

LA 1:21:13

See links to their music and more in the show notes. If you've enjoyed this collaboration we want to know, send us a message on Instagram or Twitter. We love hearing from you.

Sadie Witkowski 1:21:24

And while you're at it, make sure you're subscribed to both shows so you never miss an episode.

Berly 1:21:29

Also, a review on Apple Podcasts wouldn't hurt either. See you next episode. Bye!

SPEAKER_05 1:21:50

You're listening to the Beats Beat Network.